”There is a major difference between freedom of speech (which I will defend with every fiber of my being, as abhorrent as some of it might be) and hate speech which incites people to violence.”

Thank you for this post Incognito. You have put the words of many into perfect writing.

I have never photos like this. Pure Hate..

Thanks Oscar. It’s all so very sad and pathetic. How do you counter such hatred?!

There are also a ton of videos out there showing the duplicity of some the Imams who claim, in public, they are for peace and then preach hate in their mosques etc. I will be posting more of that here. People need to be aware.

”Be prepared for the real holocaust. Exterminate, massacre, slay, behead and butcher those who mock Islam”.

Wow!! If that’s what they’d do to people who do more than mock them, I shudder to think of the consequences if this rabble ever defeated Israel and the West.

Is this Islam???????

EXCELLENT POST!!!

@Michael

That’s why I Michael I have asked you some days back ” Who is going to bell the cat ?”

Is it possible for the moderates,amid such waves of deep hatred, to do something concrete for better virtues?

well, according to our friend Marco, who I assume is not an extremist, that is the goal of Islam to defeat Israel and the west,he said it in his own words..http://marcovilla.instablogs.com/entry/the-world-stands-with-gaza/#comment-560040

”Why is it that when non-Muslims criticize Islam we are called Islamaphobics and racists, and yet nothing is said when they call for death to the Jews and the West? Why is nothing being said? FEAR.”


—————-This is the most common double standard of our times.It’s not arisen out of fear but it’s solely meant to create fertile ground for Islamic extremists, supported by pseudo-intellectuals across the globe.

Arvind, I’m sure that has something to do with it, but I still think people are too fearful to criticize.. not only because they don’t want to be called racists but also because they fear for their lives. Anyone, including other Muslims, who have condemned the violence have had fatwas issued against them. It’s sad.

and you asked Michael C:
”Is it possible for the moderates,amid such waves of deep hatred, to do something concrete for better virtues?”

Again, if Marco Villa represents the moderate faction of Islam, I think not. The hatred is too deeply imbedded. Truly sad.

@Incognito

I am also confused whether the moderate voices are, in reality, moderates or not? In other words, it’s still not very clear who are to be hailed as moderate voices within Muslim community ? Or,for that matter, are there enough moderate voices within Muslim community ?

”We can only hope more speak out.�”

—-And by that time most of us would have been eliminated in the name of jihad!!!!

What I am going to say may upset many, but truth has to be said.

Any strife anywhere in the world can be rooted out only if long standing injustice is rooted out. Peace comes only when justice is done. Force and aggression creates more strife. Reconciliation is impossible.

In a world which moves through a dialectical process it is idle to expect anything else. History is replete with examples of never ending strife which gets exported to newer geographies. The middle-east is a classic example of terrorism getting exported elsewhere because true justice is yet to be rendered.

The victims (those who feel aggressed against) are bound to invoke passion on the basis of identity, whether the identity is based on religion or race. Identity politics is a reality, however much we may dislike it.

The cost of waging war and increase in security costs due to growing terrorist activity is not funny. I am sure these statistics will change the way we think about it.

This post shows people holding placards inciting violence and hate. Of course this is not desirable.

But this is less problematic than real ground level damaging actions like misguided wars waged on ’presumed’ presence of WMD, ”shock and awe”, Abu Graib, Guantanamo bay, relentless pounding of civilians areas, supporting despots and monarchies while preaching democracy and a hundred other such things.

All such REAL actions adds to the knowledge (and sometime also perception) that powerful countries (who are really responsible for this mess) are not really interested in justice. So the dialectic process takes over and we will keep seeing a chain of actions and reactions till the whole world is consumed in this hatred.

If the world is serious about tackling terrorism, the first step would be to secure justice in a honest way and stop manipulating.

There is no other alternative.

Interesting comment Anto, and I would be more inclined to believe in your motives for writing it however if, as well as citing perceived errors by the West, as in

ground level damaging actions like misguided wars waged on ’presumed’ presence of WMD, ”shock and awe”, Abu Graib, Guantanamo bay, relentless pounding of civilians areas, supporting despots and monarchies while preaching democracy and a hundred other such things”

...you had ALSO cited, in the interest of a balanced approach ”9/11, the deliberate suicide bomb killings of civilians in many countries, he internet-diffused beheading of civilians captured in warzones” and others.

You see, by claiming that western errors are at the root of it all, you are automatically (and I’m sure unwittingly) condoning these actions, and talking the same language that terrorists use in order to justify their action.

AND if you are saying that the phenomena I cited are only in RETALIATION, then you have a serious problem there my friend.

My take?

It’s the chicken and the egg.

And you are being unrealistic by expecting us to believe that all this is the West’s fault, and that it would all stop if we ”secured justice”.

Fundamentalists want the OVERTHROW of the Western world, and if you cannot accept that, then I’m afraid you haven’t really understood the issue.

Respects.

� Arvind, Sadly I don’t think they are. Most moderates are probably secular, and the few that truly are, are too afraid to be vocal. There are groups that exist.. Muslims Against Sharia etc. but not sure what they can do to change the tide of fundamentalism that seems to be sweeping the world.� We can only hope more speak out.�

ANTO: Truth is obviously subjective.. and what I see as truth differs from yours.

People love to blame the U.S., primarily, for terrorism (as you mention... shock and awe, abu ghraib, guantanamo) but what people conveniently fail to acknowledge, is that ”terrorism” in all its ugly manifestations pre-dated 9/11.

It also doesn’t explain why there is so much Muslim on Muslim violence in places like Iraq. If the insurgency was truly about foreign occupation, why do they continue to kill each other and not just the foreign occupiers. Every day you hear about some suicide bomber blowing himself up (along with innocent men, women and children) in market places, funerals, weddings... can you please explain that to me???? thank you.

� Arvind, your comment made me laugh... because it’s so true.... Oh Goodness, all I can say is�God help us all.. �

Freedom of speech means there is a point in whatever you say. And when you criticize something, there is a point , you want it to be better. But when you draw cartoons to mock other people’s beliefs, when you make a movie by picking verses out of contexts from a holybook , misinterpreting their meanings and showing them to the world to say this religion is a religion of violence, ( and you know the media’s powerful influence on people) then what is the point there?
Freedom of speech does not mean disrespecting and mocking other people’s beliefs. It does not mean hurting other people.
Those were pictures of angry people. Their beliefs were disrespected and mocked..

And by saying all that, I am not justifying all acts of some Muslims. I’m not with those who just pointlessly preach hate against others whose beliefs are different from mine. And I’m not with those who attack.

We should all work to understand each other’s beliefs and cultures and learn how to coexist.

What freedom of speech is depends on where you live.

In the West, cartoons making fun of ALL religions is permitted.

Are we supposed to change because of religious objections from another part of the planet or else face the fatwas?

In other parts of the world, articles denying the holocaust can be freely published, which is not possible here.

Who’s asking those people to change? Are Westerners burning down these countries’ embassies? Are we forcing their authors to go into hiding?

Of course we are not. What is accepted in other cultures, whether we like it or not, we do not try to change.

I think it should cut both ways.

Shall we play by their rules and burn down THEIR embassies?

No.

Freedom of speech?

WHICH freedom of speech?

Hello Almaha, I guess what I don’t understand is why it’s okay for Muslims to mock other people’s beliefs (and I can show you a zillion pictures showing that)but it’s not okay to mock the Muslim religion. Frankly, I find mockery of any religion to be offensive, but it goes both ways. And I don’t understand why that anger has to turn to violence, which it did after the Danish cartoon incident. It’s excessive to threaten to kill people who slander your religion. Should we do the same thing when you slander ours? I think not.

And I agree, we should all work to understand other people’s cultures and religions (as you can see my avatar says coexist, however, when you have people like Marco Villa claiming Islam is going to dominate the world, I take offense to that. I have as much right to my beliefs as you do, and can you see where we might get a little testy with people who claim that?

Thanks for your comment.

Incognito: Hi
It’s not even okay when Muslims mock other beliefs.
And such Muslims do not represnt me nor Islam and all Muslims.
And, if one’s beliefs are mocked or disrespected, this should be dealt with wisely.

�Hi Almaha,� It’s not okay.. but it happens, and happens alot.� Perhaps you can�become the voice of reason for those who do not agree with those that do not represent Islam.� We need those voices to stand up and condemn those who do not represent your faith.

Michael C, Incognito and the rest

My comment was not meant to prove my objectivity. Also every comment you make doesn’t necessarily have to be two sided. My thoughts and comments are directed towards seeking lasting peace. Also, it doesn’t matter how my comments or motives are perceived. Thats probably the last thing on my mind.

My comment was that real ground level action like the ones I listed are more effective in creating terror and hatred in keeping alive the perception of injustice and also cycle of violence going. Angry protesters holding placards inciting hate is surely undesirable but not as effective. The two cannot be equated.

Also the cycle of violence envelops newer places and will eventually suck every country in.

Fifty years ago the number of countries affected by such violence and terror were different. What happened? How has it spread? And at what cost? Who is benefiting from this?

And in all these years no country has every won the war on terror. By reacting each time with greater force and power, we have only managed to escalate it and export it. I don’t have to cite examples here.

My point here is not to condone the inciting of hate and violence or 911 or any other such terrible acts. My point here is also not to apportion blame on any religious group or country.

Violence is reprehensible whether it is done by any State or a group of faceless terrorists.

The only point I was making is how we can secure peace? This is possible only if those who are bent on settling scores (from both sides) are ”shut up”. The cycle of violence has to stop. This can be achieved only if we are prepared to mete out REAL and LASTING JUSTICE.

Something’s finally gotta give.