I can see both sides. I was raised by a very ”old-school” Mexican father and a very independent Mexican Mother.

My American wife and I went through some very turbulant years early in our marriage.

I wanted to accompany my wife everywhere she went. I didn’t want her to work, for it wasn’t economically necessary. I wanted to protect her and not force unnecessary pressures and burdens on her. I wanted to keep any and every type of harm far far away from her.

She felt I was trying to control her. She said she felt as if I had brought her to another country to keep her in a guilded cage.... I was crushed, she was crushed, we were devestated..Sooo.what happened? We had to adjust..give and take. We had to learn the reasons for such passionate actions and reactions we were both so notorious for.

More than twenty years and three kids, we are still together. She DOES work outside the home as a teacher and she is a fierce and loving mother and wife in the home. I didn’t realize, for her, working was an ambition, a drive, a feeling of giving back and contributing to our community...

She learned I did not want her to be burdened, pressured, forced. I wanted, on the countrary to place her high enough above the chaos of society that her only worries would be herself and our kids..I would bare the brunt of the rest...

As for women in war, pilots, tanks, etc..I HATE it..not because I think they are inferior or incapable, but because it hurts me to think of women being bloodied, beatened and battered. While I do not like it, I DO RESPECT a womans right to choose.

In Mexico, it is more and more common to see woman working in entering the military, driving trucks, and other ”men” work..It has been shown, many times over, here in Mexico, that women are much more reliable in jobs.

They are incredible at details and multi-tasking. They are not swayed by others opinion or ”bribes” of authority, friendship, or powers. They do not miss work due to hangovers, colds, etc..They have inbcredible minds, courage, loyality, and dedication.

Although my wife and I both have other jobs, we also have a sales business we work together..I administer the employees, collect payments, etc, but I would never dare try to negotiate a sale. The men will always want a better price, or renogotian from me.. My wife on the other hand, will not lower the price even a peso, but the way she does her negotiations is non-threatening.. When it comes to business, She is a coolheaded shark desguised as a tiny, bubbly blond American.

Everything has to do with learning WHY certain customs are in place..We both had to talk, listen, and understand eachother’s reasonings.

Thanks so much for your honesty Oscar.

I think there are some women who are very happy to be just mothers, and back in the 40s, 50s and 60s it was probably the norm. But most modern women, even if they choose to spend the first 5 or 10 years of their kid’s life at home, have felt the need to do more with their lives once the kids were grown.

I’m so glad you worked things out, instead of forcing her to conform to your ideals. And your business has obviously thrived because of your wife. I’m sure she’s an amazing mom, an amazing teacher and amazing at both because she was allowed to do both. I can guarantee you that had you forced her to just be a mom, the marriage would never have lasted, or she would have made your life miserable as punishment.

My mother never worked in her life, after she married, because she was a Diplomat’s wife and that was her job. She did volunteer work, but that’s it. I wonder if that’s what caused her depression all these years.

Again, thanks for being so honest.

My mother originally had her own business and actually paid for my father’s university degree. Once they got married, she had four kids rather quickly and later became a ”socialite” traveling with my father in politics.

Her children have all grown and married, and she has lead for the most part a luxiurious, yet miserable life.

My father did NOT insist her stop working, but she did..a big part of her died and she has been depressed and bitter ever since... She punishes my father, but also punishes us kids.my wife has tried to get her back into business, any type, but she claims she is too old.

As for my wife..you are right, I marriage would have failed before it ever flourished had we not come to terms and heard eachother out.

I guess my point is, every woman must make their own decision, they must follow their heart..and if they should find that either staying at home or working a profession doesn’t feel right, they should surely be granted the right to change their minds.

On the other hand, other cultures must understand before condemning..I could easily say my ”mexican” way is correct as many families still function perfectly well and enjoy loving, blissful marriages,: no punishing afterthoughts, depression, anger, or malice; but NOT ALL Mexican families can or do..It is an individual womans and or matrimonial decision which may or may not be based upon traditions, customs, and religions.

Yup, she was quite a fiesty gal, back in her time....She still IS, somewhere locked within herself.

I agree that EVERY person should follow their heart. Man and women..I guess I should have better expressed myself, but I spoke of women, since the post was about them.

Wow, that’s pretty amazing Oscar, for your Mum, especially in those days and in a Latin Country. (My Mom is Colombiana so I know).� But as you can see, it made her miserable and depressed, like it did my mum and she made everyone around her suffer.� My mother has been on pills for depression etc for as long as I can remember. She finally found a combo of pills that have finally helped her.� So she is so much better now.� But people who are prevented from doing what their Soul needs (whatever that might be) will turn bitter and die within. You’re absolutely right every woman should follow their heart, but I will add that every person should follow their heart.�Because that is where GOD is leading them. �As I said, I have great compassion and admiration for a woman who wants to stay at home and raise her children, but I have as much admiration for a woman who wants�to help discover the cure for cancer and does not necessarily want children.

I know what you are talking about, Incognito...and believe me, it will take a lot of time for this chauvinistic male category to change their mindset. May be another century, and still some of them will not change.

Somewhere, women are at fault, as well. Coz i believe that people treat you the way you want them to. Most of them don’t raise their voice, hence suffer.

Might be another century and another lifetime, Sanwali, but I think those that oppress women will come back next time as an oppressed woman themselves. Have to love Karma.

I think women are at fault, to a certain extent, but under Islam if women try to change and demand they be respected they are often abused or killed. We even have that here in the U.S. Father’s have killed their daughters because they were becoming too westernized or refused an arranged marriage. If it can happen here, I can imagine how much harder it would be over there.

But this is how it goes Incognito. Someone has to take the initiative. In India, condition of women was pathetic, 100 yrs back. Today it is totally different in urban lands and is improving in rural areas. But there are still some places where women are treated as a property and not human being. The good part is that a revolution has come and slowly the things will change. E.g. I am completely independent inspite of living in a small city. I make my own decisions which are later supported by my family. So people accept you when you make them do so. If I agree to their terms in a single conversation, then I would never have achieved that sense of independence.

Rome was not built in day my friend and to achieve something you have to pay the price.
Cheers! 

�You expressed yourself very well.. I just wanted to add that. not because you didn’t mention it, because as you mention the post was about women..

 You are absolutely right, Sanwali.  Conditions here were pretty bad as well, 100 years ago, as well. Then the Sufragettes fought and gained many advances for women, including the right to vote.  But, I think the difference is that India is predominately Hindu, and the U.S. is/was predominately Christian, we don’t have as many oppressive religious laws as Islam does.  I’m not sure the average Muslim woman is willing to pay the price, because the price could be death.  But I hope you are right.  I still have much admiration for a country that elected Indira Ghandi to office. And Pakistan for electing Benazir Bhutto, in spite of the allegations of corruption, she was a woman. I find that very progressive, considering we have yet to vote in a femal president.  Cheers back, my enlightened friend!

Good post incognito. Such a chauvinistic mentality comes out of narrow-mindedness. Modernity and progress can’t come to such a place where narrow-mindedness exists.

Generally, women like to do feminine tasks but some do want to become drivers and all. The recent category of female bodybuilders has shown they are nothing less. I am open to experimentation. I believe freedom has to be there to woman, no oppression. A place where freedom exists, everyone gets to live life at least.

Thanks Ameya. I think in some cases it is cultural and often a misguided sense of chivalry. But in other cases it’s plain chauvinism- especially with religious fundamentalists... and that goes for any religion.

@ Incognito

I wish to say something in lighter vein.God did not create women to turn into bra-burning feminists either...ha..ha

I don’t there are going to be many takers of such progressiveness that does not allow intimacy to breed between man and woman.We are in the world to be in love with each.Have we appeared on this planet to be involved in fencing duel with each other all the time on flimsy pretexts ?


No wonder why divorce rates are going up all the time.Changing husbands, wives, boyfriends all the time is not indication of progressiveness but indication of one’s inability to maintain a permanent relationship.

Why don’t we build another CHINA WALL that separates men and women across the globe completely...ha..ha .Let’s see what happens after that ?

And yes, venturing out of their homes is no indication of one’s enlightenment.So no point in calling those women as enlightened souls.A woman involved in household works is equally enlightened as working women involved in outside world.

Yes, there are also likes of Mayavati and Jayalaitha -the corrupt female politicians. Benazir had also never been above suspicion in her lifetime !!

”And yes, venturing out of their homes is no indication of one’s enlightenment.So no point in calling those women as enlightened souls.A woman involved in household works is equally enlightened as working women involved in outside world.”

If you are talking about me, gentelman, then let me make it very clear that its your misconception that a working women (or more precisely independent; financially and mentally) are unable to deliver love to the family and is the root cause of the breaking relationships. Presently i take care of my house, my parental house and the office and doing very well.

I am loved by my family including cousines and relatives, parents and most of all my husband. Thank god he does not have this kind of mentallity as i see in most of the men at IB. I very well know what god created me for and am fulfilling all the responsibilities without sacrificing my dreams and wishes.

I thought you were one of the wise people on IB but after this comment you proved me wrong. Anyway doesn’t matter to me but next time i will not appreciate such personal comments. Thanks!

On a lighter vein.. I don’t know Arvind, there are some people who think GOD is a she, and so maybe she did. I am not one who believes that... but, on a serious note. I still think that GOD would not have given women a brain if HE just wanted us to bear children and raise a family. He made some of us with creative abilities (I’m an actress, and a photographer), some with scientific abilities.. etc. etc. And thank GOD for that. We’re not in competition with men, we just want to be treated with dignity, respect and equality.

I’m not a feminist.. but I believe in equality and mutual respect between the sexes.

@Sanwali

You appear to be in a very bad mood today...ha..ha. What a waste of words!! A small clarification. While writing the comment I had neither U nor your comment in my mind. In fact,when I read the post along with your comment I had really whole-heatedly accepted your point of view.

And U must have noticed that whenever possible, I have always tried to put your comments in proper perspective via constructive comments on your posts and comments and in the process, managed to keep harsh criticism at bay which I usually love to enter into.

Coming back to present. While writing the comment I was in a very jolly and happy mood and that’s why I stated in my comment I am saying these things in a lighter vein.

I am forced to smile because some days ago Almaha too misunderstood my words and painted me in wrong colors. Interestingly, it was Incognito who quashed the wrong impressions of Almaha by removing her false impressions. And yes, Sanwali, if I will ever criticize U then definitely I will address the comment to U.

In other words, I will love to fight with you head-on(as I have done till now on IB) instead of fighting a proxy battle with U like Pakistanis..ha..ha .

I must inform U that my comment revolved around one of the paragraphs of Incognito’s comment: ” Why not a pilot, or truck driver, or a doctor, lawyer or politician? If someone wants to be a mother and homemaker, more power to them, but to presume that most women would give up a job to stay at home is downright offensive to an enlightened woman ”.

Anyway, it appears that you hail me ”one of the wise people on IB”. Certainly, I would be more than happy if you retain it. Even if you do not do so I will continue to give U the same respect as I did before. My policy in this regard is very clear: Don’t let relationship close to heart break into pieces via silly confusions and misunderstandings.

It’s another thing that I have till now, especially on IB,been said so many things only on basis of baseless assumptions and presumptions. I have no grudges. Human life is another name of unwanted happenings and false impressions!!!

I am really happy that ”you take care of my house, my parental house and the office and doing very well ” .But as a lawyer and also as a man who loves to analyze and observe life from close angles I have seen many women that have brutally murdered many beautiful relationships mainly to keep their vested interests alive. And I see no reason in ignoring my experiences.

At the same time, I have also seen women sacrificing everything to keep relationships going. So I am at present ”Khatta-Meetha” like a simple life....ha..ha.BTW, I am also listening a beautiful song from JTYJN and it has beautiful line : “ Dil Kabhi Thanda Kabhi Hai Atom Bomb Sa Ye Dhamaka Kaise Koi Sahe” I am just feeling the same way …ha..ha

@Incognito

Sadly, God is neither he nor she..ha..ha.

Correction:

I don’t think there are going to be many takers of such progressiveness that does not allow intimacy to breed between man and woman.We are in the world to be in love with each other.

Why are only women asked such questions? I mean, do we ever ask a man, whether he wants to become a doctor or a truck driver?? Then why do women have to explain every decision of theirs?? Men ahveto understand that woman has the potential to become a doctor, a truck driver and even a worl leader! But what i don understand is that why so many hands are clapped or eyebrows are raised when a woman does something like tis? Do we say, See Wow! A man won the presidential elections!!! Great, see how progressive our society has become! We don’t na?? Then why such difference for women?

Hi IC,

Actually I have already answered Megha’s question at another place where she expressed the same quandry.

It all boils down to the ’astonishing shocking’ question I asked :”Do you honestly feel MOST women would like to give up the job of being a good mother to her children and the custodian of a happy family to any other job”?

Implicit in the question is the understanding that SOME women would like to to do both jobs,and SOME might even want to just work and opt out of being a house wife all togather.

The problem only arises where one assumes ALL women want to be house wives alone -or even ALL prefer to work but are forced to become house wives - and therefore only in a social or religious system which denies married women the opportunity to work.

The problem would be inconceivable in a system where the right to work is always available to women in the first place;with the additional option of including this as a stipulation from the womens side in a marriage contract.

In such a system Oscar would never have faced the problem he did ,where the couple left to struggle and eventually solve the problem on their own ;nor would Megha feel the need to raise her anguished query;nor would the hard working and dedicated mother as well -Sanwali - so easily misunderstand and take offence at Arvind’s very judicious statement.

�I don’t know Megha... you will have to ask Hassan and all the other males that question.� And actually there are men who stay at home and take care of children, and enjoy that.� We don’t question that.�

Differences between Men and Women at this level is irrelevant. The sums involved are quite incredible and quite worrying. Im sure all these people say they give back via charities etc - and I hope they do in abundance, but these numbers are truly distasteful irrespective given poverty in the world today - a long way from the USA.

Hello Oleg, I’m not quite sure what you are referring to re. giving to charities, but thanks for your comment.

@Incognito

—-Arvind, interestingly, it was Incognito? Why interestingly? :-)

...Ha..ha..ha. That’s because last time when such hilarious situation occurred wherein Almaha understood the whole comment exactly opposite to impression I came to convey in the comment, you were the first one to project the real meaning I mean stated firmly that the whole thing was not offensive, which was really the case.

Same thing has happened again. Lo and behold you are once again present to witness the same developments. I mean comedy of interpretations has once again occurred. Sanwali is a smart girl. I am sure she will not need your intervention to understand where she has erred.

I wrote the comment keeping U and your words in mind and that too in a very happy state of mind. It came to infuriate Sanwali. She believes that whole comment is centred around her views, which is in fact not the case at all. Now just tell me is that not a very comical and funny development? I am sure you must be smiling. Even Sanwali would have been smiling after being aware of the actualities. Isn’t it? Anyway, it appears that some supernatural forces are not interested in letting me leave comments on IB. And that’s why they are making other people to receive my comments in diametrically opposite manner to actual purport of the comment. It’s just like punishing Shyam for theft committed by Ram….ha..ha. What should Shyam do? Ha..ha.

It’s also easier to think of God as a SHE.

� Arvind, Interestingly, it was Incognito? Why interestingly? :-)

@Arvind, I would agree... GOD is actually Light, in my mind, but easier to think of HIM as a HE.�

the arrogant world was formed my mans control from the very beginning , it makes one wonder what put this in motion that way, evolution or a male god, servival is depended on genetic superiority and is why woman have no say in a man,s world as they have an overwhelming urge to take care of there eggs and do the nesting ,that is why like this site and all others of thought it is mostly men and the few women ask the advice or approval of men you may be strong of thought but woman’s thoughts and hopes will be determined by man ,woman may have the children but the more powerful man will determine how the person will die or lead there liefs, almost all spiritual ideas were formed by man , it is unfair that woman will pass by the wayside by the billions and no one to care or remember what they said,this may change in the future as our need to couple will become less and less and lowering our hormonal drives and that will help equal things out

Hey Wayne,

Actually I did not post this for anyone’s approval, it was more to make a point, cloaked in a question.

I agree with you though. It is arrogant to assume that women are not capable and simply want to have lots of babies and cook and clean for their families.

Thanks for your inisght.

As a working career woman I agree that woman have given many things to the world and we are as accomplished as men. Women have the same rights, capabilities and needs to work as men.
Each one has to look at her own situation and make the decision that best suits her environment AT any given time.

I like my job and I honestly feel that I can manage home and work perfectly….Probably because women are good at multi tasking. But I know many women who prefer to stay at home and be ”home makers”. This does not make them any more or less than a woman who goes out to work.

As to the question whether men are threatened by working women, it depends on the mindset of men. If the mindset is about money, many are threatened (many women nowadays earned more than their husband) but if woman knows and understand her position there is nothing for men to fear about.

Maya,

”if woman knows and understand her position there is nothing for men to fear about”.

Can you please elucidate what you mean by ”knows and understand her position’?

Also I would appreciate to know your thoughts on if the woman knows and understands her position would she have anything to fear from man?

I really want to understand what you are trying to convey.